ihrketayhl: (Default)
ihrketayhl ([personal profile] ihrketayhl) wrote2009-06-09 10:56 pm

Feeling Thinky.

For the curious, I love my new job. But that's not what this post is about.

Any of you who know me IRL, and a handful of those who only know me online, know that I spend a lot of my time in...let's be generous and call them "conversations"...with those who hold viewpoints that oppose mine.

Put bluntly: I like to argue. A lot.

And for the past handful of years I've felt drawn particularly to religious or religion-based arguments, possibly just because of the sociopolitical climate, or possibly because I like my debates with a healthy dose of batshit. Who knows.*

I'm Catholic, if anyone's wondering; I'm just a pro-gay marriage, pro-evolution, pro-Choice and pro-religious-freedom Catholic who doesn't believe in Hell, which according to a lot of people makes me a very BAD Catholic. XD

Anyway, there's your background. Today's topic is abortion, specifically late-term abortions. No, I'm not planning on making this a terribly long post, I just...needed to vent this at somebody.

I keep hearing from the Pro-Life segment that one of the reasons abortion, especially late-term abortion, is wrong is because God has a purpose for suffering. Today I heard an example of a man whose wife had lung cancer: he claimed it served the purpose of bringing them closer. Now, I know nothing about this man, barring what he says in these comments.

But I'm REALLY BOTHERED by the notion that just because some good comes out of the pain, it somehow JUSTIFIES the pain.

When I was a kid, that was called "looking on the bright side." Which I appreciate! I think it shows great strength of character to take a painful, horrible event, and bring something good out of it. I think people who can do that are the strongest in the world.

That said, the painful, horrible event? Still sucked. Saying that something good came out of it does not transform the event itself into a good thing.

So, to bring it back to the original topic, just because one might grow personally from the experience of watching their malformed child live a short, painful life, doesn't mean that the short, painful life of the child was a wonderful thing. (This is ignoring, even, the idea that painful things happening to others only happen to help YOU grow, an idea which kind of disgusts me.)

Sure, there are bright sides to everything. But deliberately seeking a painful experience--for yourself and for this child? Because God has a purpose for everything and you might grow from it?

I'm not sure what you call that.

(Though, after typing that out, it does occur to me that this is kind of a common theme in the Christian faith. We celebrate Christ's death on the cross. Some of us even celebrate the existence of Hell because the possibility of Hell allows us to appreciate God's love.** Perhaps we need to examine where this comes from before we can really get to the root of the issue.)

*not meant to imply all religious folks are batshit. though i'm religious and i'm pretty batshit, so make of that what you will. XD

**edit to the last *: yeah, never mind, we're batshit.

Interested in other points of view. Sharing welcome.

[identity profile] paradoxymoron.livejournal.com 2009-06-10 07:46 am (UTC)(link)
Pain, in an of itself, is not a good thing. The actions taken as a result of pain can be good: motivation to fight off an attacker, bringing the family together after a tragedy, etc.

The linked story? Euthenizing the cat was the most humane thing: the ending of life before the good was outweighed by the suffering. That's more of a right-to-die than a pro-life/pro-choice, in my opinion. Is it the most moral choice? The most ethical? Depending on your beliefs, yes.

I agree with your statement that the short painful life of the child is not a wonderful thing. (Though, if you want to argue, I can say it's a good thing.)

[identity profile] vareth-is.livejournal.com 2009-06-11 04:35 am (UTC)(link)
No, I wanted other opinions--I value and respect argument, but so long as your agreement is honest and not just ass-kissing, I appreciate that as well. XD

I'm sort of hesitant to say the life of a child isn't a wonderful thing, because, like...even if the child is suffering, it's still your child, it still exists, and there's something about new life that is (IMO) inherently beautiful.

But it's sort of selfish, isn't it, to say that because YOU find something beautiful, it's okay to put that something through a lot of unnecessary pain and torment. Because you think it's beautiful, because you think it's worthwhile. It's like, well, that's great, but since the kid isn't going to live long enough to appreciate your Deep Feelings towards it, aren't you kinda just using it?

[identity profile] paradoxymoron.livejournal.com 2009-06-11 04:48 am (UTC)(link)
It is selfish. And self-serving, but sometimes something wonderful does come out of being selfish. There's a difference between causing intentional pain (Munchausen's By Proxy) versus pain due to absense of action (not performing medical work, not treating due to beliefs, etc); are either of those using the child?

One of my friends was not expected to live until her first birthday, much less graduate college and get married (which she's done), because of the extent of the congenital defects she suffered. It's possible she could have been medically aborted, had her parents believed in it (Catholic) or had it been presented (I've never asked).
So. This could have been a case of selfish It's My Baby It Will Be Wonderful during a short, painful life and an early death, but with the Miracle Of Modern Science, she's pulled through. Now, her life is fairly wonderful. Then? Not so much. But? The pain was not unessesary; in order to repair, pain was caused. Pain is still caused on a daily basis due to the nature of the work, but I wouldn't venture that it was unnessesary.

Not asskissing. :D

[identity profile] vareth-is.livejournal.com 2009-06-11 05:05 am (UTC)(link)
This is very true! And this is, I think, where a lot of the (SANE, VALID) arguments stem from. You really can't know what the "right" choice will be, because you can't predict a miracle. And because the child has no voice of its own, you have to be the one to decide--are you going to risk the child having a lot of pain and potentially dying very young, or not?

I don't think either choice is inherently selfish, nor do I think pain is something that should ALWAYS be avoided, because sometimes you do need to go through it to grow, to live.

But that's the thing: it's not absolute, and neither option is necessarily more "right," if such a thing can even be quantified. Sometimes aborting the child is the most humane thing you can do, for both the mother and the child; and sometimes, even if you know it's humane, you just can't bring yourself to do it. No one knows how it could turn out or how it will turn out.

That's why they call it pro-choice, not pro-abortion. :)

(And I didn't think you were. You don't strike me as the type to asskiss. XD)

[identity profile] paradoxymoron.livejournal.com 2009-06-11 05:10 am (UTC)(link)
There are values, on a scale, of what is and is not right. Sticking a needle into a kid is generally not a good thing. Sticking a needle into a kid to inject a vaccine is a good thing. Sticking a needle into a kid to test an experimental treatment that may cure the overlaying problem but cause further complications...is...getting into the gray fuzzy area in the middle somewhere.

Some people have a definite black/white sense of right and wrong, ethics and morals. Killing a kid is always wrong, no matter if it's to save the life of the mother or to end suffering for a condition that will not improve but will only be prolonged. Other people...there's gray, there's different shades of gray, there's a different spectrum of gray.


I'm gray. :) And I can defend someone making a choice even if I do not agree with that choice (most of the time).

[identity profile] vareth-is.livejournal.com 2009-06-11 05:53 am (UTC)(link)
Well, see, I'm not arguing that killing the kid is ever RIGHT.

I'm just saying that--well, that blog I linked to kinda put it best. Sometimes there isn't a right choice. Sometimes there's just a choice.

I grew up in a pro-life household, spent the majority of my life believing in the pro-life movement. The majority of my extended family is pro-life (and there are a lot of them, and I see them often). I definitely understand where that side of the fence is coming from. I've been there.

But I'm not there anymore, for damn good reasons.

[identity profile] paradoxymoron.livejournal.com 2009-06-11 05:58 am (UTC)(link)
So you're either on the fence or over on the other side; I take it this is a thought-out move, questioning that side of the equasion and then making your own decision based on your belief structure (rather than absolute rejection/rebellion)?

[identity profile] jesurgislac.livejournal.com 2009-06-11 08:55 am (UTC)(link)
While I'm definitely on the pro-choice side of the fence (I can't think it's ever right for the state or for any individual to have the right to force a woman to bear a child against her will: woman have to have legal access to abortion and the government just has to trust women to use that right wisely) my post was specifically about the awful no-right-choices inherent in late-term abortions, related to what was absolutely the worst no-right-choice decision I ever had to make.

I know pet-owners - friends of mine - who would have decided differently: who would have wanted their pet to stay alive until they knew their pet definitely wanted to die. And I can't say that's the wrong or right decision either. It's an awful position to be in, knowing that you have to decide, and you are the only one who can decide, when the right time to kill has arrived. For me, the only way to go is to say that the person who is the only person who can make that decision must be given the legal right to make that decision. Sometimes they may use that right unwisely. But the consequences of taking that right away will be worse than the consequences of granting that right.

Hm. I think I need to make an update to my post...